ESPN MLB Conversation

moleman92106

Padres have pretty much proved they can take any team's scrub relievers and plug them into the bullpen and get results. Linebrink, Otsuka, Adams, Gregerson, Bell, Frieri, etc.
337 Days ago

wwbaxter

Nice article. Can closer strategy change back again is a useful question. Two things: One is the "psychology" of the closers. Many of them seem to have convinced themselves that they can only come in to start the 9th inning. If they're brought into a tough situation in the 8th and lose, they'll complain that they are being misused by the manager. Second is agents. Agents of course see only $$ and the $$ come from high save totals and not team victories - which as pointed out in the article, would increase if closers were used more wisely.
337 Days ago

scott.butland

Its because the managers are scared of losing the closers to injury. For some reason they think that if they throw more than one inning, it will hurt their arms. Its pathetic
338 Days ago

mikeroyne

some clubs realize that the save rule & the closer role is archaic. the sox let PHI overpay for papelbon. aside from Rivera, the numbers back up the idea that the closer role is pretty unimportant. as long as players like making money, it will never change
338 Days ago

joelopes49

How do you write a whole article about closers and not mention Mariano Rivera, the best of all time, or even Trevor Hoffman? Rivera's multi-inning saves are more prominent in the post-season, as well as his use in tie games in extras at home to hold the other team and give your team the chance to win in their last at bat. This sets him apart. Rivera is the modern version of the Eck model of efficiency and his results confirm your point about the folly of blind adherence to the save statistic.
339 Days ago

elchancho

Because both of those guys are products of where we are right now. Which, in case you didn't read the article, was not what the article was about. The article was about HOW we got here.
338 Days ago

TCLasVegas

The complete game has been replaced by the save. Averaging 12 CG's a year is gone resulting in 12 save opportunities a year more per starter. Usually to one player. Nolan Ryan had 19 CG's AFTER he turned 40 in the 90's. Verlander for example has 17 CAREER CG's. Ryan got stronger as a game went on. The Verlanders of today are coming out at the 100 pitch count...and giving a save where there used to be no opportunity...I don't think pitching is better ~ I think it's diluted...
340 Days ago

tim_3133

Justin Verlander is probably the worst pitcher you could have picked as your example. The number of CGs Ryan through after 40 was in about the same amount of seasons as Verlander has played his hole career. Clearly for someone over 40 that is still very impressive but Ryan only had 2 seasons with more innings than Verlander has averaged in his 6 full seasons. Also Verlander rarely comes out at 100 pitches. I'm not trying to say that that isnt a very common thing in baseball these days but Verlander regularly goes above that and generally gets held back from complete games by the downright horrendous defense behind him in Detroit.
339 Days ago

jrjosh26

HOW BOUT THE YANKEES AND THEIR SORIANO, ROBERTSON, RIVERA?(injured) last year robertson was better then mo so yea....
340 Days ago

shelbytabbyjake

There are a lot of teams that don't put their best reliever in the closing role. Ryan Cook is the best Oakland reliever, but he's used whenever they are in a jam or in the eighth inning, same for Hernandez in Arizona, and Pestano in Cleveland. It ensures that the team still has somebody to finish if there is a tough spot at the end of the game, but puts the best reliever in the truly toughest situation more often than not.
340 Days ago

NMinnixKFFL

.
340 Days ago

r_burg22

like clippard and storen in dc.
340 Days ago

shelbytabbyjake

Evan Meek was a good example last season too. Not every team does it that way, but It sure makes some sense.
340 Days ago

Good Looking Loser

It's also necessary that you have to throw 96+mph to even be considered as a closer. There's plenty of guys that only throw 92mph that can get the job done far better than some of the current stoppers
340 Days ago

TCLasVegas

Nolan Ryan threw 100+ mph after the 7th inning regularly. He got stronger as games went on ~ thus he was in need of relief...
340 Days ago

tpittman10

Trevor Hoffman laughs at your statement.
340 Days ago

Larrschmitt

A stopper is not the same as a closer. A stopper is a starting pitcher who can stop a losing streak.
340 Days ago

gronkandhernandez8785

I agree with all of this. If you're going to spend big on a closer, why don't you use him early and often? I'm sure they can throw more than 15 pitches a game.
340 Days ago

Paul_Da_Third

The Braves gave up the granny to A-Rod in the SEVENTH inning. 2.2 innings is a lot different than 1.2.
340 Days ago

PHD4life

Wrong, all 6 runs were scored in the 8th. Swisher's 2-run HR was 2 batters after A-Rod's grand slam.
340 Days ago

dao270

Easiest way to get rid of cheap saves? Make it 1 1/3 innings pitched minimum per appearance.
340 Days ago

cheeseboyia

Not neccesarily. A team could have a 3 run lead, 2 outs and the bases loaded when the "closer" comes in. 1 strikeout and he gets a SAVE.
339 Days ago

branflakes405

1 inning is only required when his team has a 3-run lead.
340 Days ago

mindovamatter

That simply wouldn't work. You remove the option for a save in extra innings and you would HAVE TO double switch in some situations in order to make a save in the NL? Even a 1 inning min is a little harsh - say a closer comes in with the bases loaded and one out in a one run game, then he probably deserves the same. But when you look at Casilla of SF having his last two saves come from getting one out in a three out lead.. obviously you have a problem.
340 Days ago

branflakes405

saves do not require a minimum of 1 inning. The definition of a save says he enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, at bat or on deck....and he finishes the game as a win for his team. The situation you just described certainly does result in a save.
340 Days ago

fatboy250250

FIngers, Lyle, Stanhouse, Gossage, WIlhelm, Sutter, Quisenberry were closers who pitched multiple innings and held leads. Not like these guys who pitch 1 inning max... yes, I am talking to you, Nathan, Rivera, Eck, Papelbon, Thigpen, Frankie Rodriguez, and Willie Hernandez..
340 Days ago

PHD4life

Mariano Rivera has more than his share of saves of 1 inning or more, especially in the postseason, where most of his saves are more than 1 inning. Also, Rivera has pitched 2-3 innings in games with the score tied to give the Yankees the opportunity to score and win. Remember the Aaron Boone HR against Boston? Mariano Rivera pitched 3 scoreless innings to get the game to that point. So you can leave The Great Rivera out of your insult.
340 Days ago

scott@casair.net

Willie Hernandez? 140 innings in 80 games. Sounds like more than 1 inning per outage AVERAGE to me. And really, you can't fault the pitchers. They are used the way the manager wants to use them. Which is usually wrong.
340 Days ago

justenufDranged

Great story. It actually seems like more pitchers are getting hurt than ever, starters and relievers. I really wonder if the current approach for many pitchers of living in the weight room, pausing from working out now and then to pitch, is hurting. A year or 2 ago I read about Halladay being in the weight room at 6a.m. the day after throwing a no-hitter. 30 years ago a pitcher would still be drunk the morning after a no-hitter. Which is healthier? Halladay's on the DL now, as it happens....
340 Days ago

cheeseboyia

Don't like this arguement, same issue could be made in life. George Burns smoked a ton of cigars and drank tons of Vodka per day and he lived to be 100. One guy can sneeze the wrong way and land on the DL while another does nothing the "accepted" way and never hits the DL.
339 Days ago

SDLIFER

A 3 run lead with no out out to start the 9th inning should not be a save situation. If you give up 2 runs that inning you suck that day and should not be rewarded with save, if you blow that lead, you really suck that day and deserve the loss.
340 Days ago

cheeseboyia

ABSOLUTELY!
339 Days ago